Emily Ladau:
Hi. I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily Ladau:
And you’re listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle Khachadurian:
What are we going to talk about today, Emily?

Emily Ladau:
I think we need to catch people up because we’ve been doing this thing lately where we go a while between episodes.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I mean, there is a global pandemic still.

Emily Ladau:
Arguably that should make us-

Kyle Khachadurian:
More likely to podcast.

Emily Ladau:
More productive. Yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. It really should. We have no excuse but ourselves.

Emily Ladau:
Literally when this pandemic started, I was like, “I am going to accomplish so much during this pandemic. We’re going to podcast and I’m going to do all this writing. And it’s going to be amazing.” None of that happened. Well, actually, [crosstalk 00:00:53]-

Kyle Khachadurian:
To be fair, you did do… Yeah, out of those two examples, you did one of those things.

Emily Ladau:
I think I meant more like writing for myself.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, who has time for that?

Emily Ladau:
Instead, what I have been up to for the past nine months is having a baby. The baby’s name is book and she will be introduced to the world sometime in late spring/early summer of 2021. And in case anyone didn’t follow that, it’s a book not a baby.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Can we have a socially distanced book shower?

Emily Ladau:
Oh my god, that sounds like so much fun. Is that when you stand on a balcony and you dump like books out off the balcony and shower people with books?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yes. What do you get a newborn book?

Emily Ladau:
A pre order.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That was good.

Emily Ladau:
So yeah, I wrote a book. That’s what I did with my pandemic. And please don’t misunderstand me. It wasn’t like the pandemic came and then I decided to write a book. It was already in process and I just got stuck writing it during the middle of a pandemic.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And I got a job shortly after the Tiger King era of the pandemic. And I’ve been pretty much working nonstop ever since.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. And have we mentioned that you’re moving on the podcast?

Kyle Khachadurian:
I don’t know. But in case we haven’t, I’m moving.

Emily Ladau:
Kyle’s moving.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And this will probably be the last episode that I record from New York. But we probably should record a whole bunch before I go while I’m still here now that I’m saying that out loud. So the next time you hear my voice I might be across the country. Or I might not. But I’m moving next month.

Emily Ladau:
There were no definites there because we have no idea what’s happening.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well I am moving next month. That much is-

Emily Ladau:
He is moving next month but I meant with the podcast. I don’t even know where you’re going to be when we do the next one.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’ll have internet.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. But he is moving… Can I say to Seattle?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yes you can.

Emily Ladau:
Okay, well I just said it so good.

Kyle Khachadurian:
We’ll just keep that in there.

Emily Ladau:
Or you can bleep it out and then everyone will be like, “Where?”

Kyle Khachadurian:
Is there a city that’s a curse word?

Emily Ladau:
Yah. So Kyle and I will now be across the country from one another. But the good news for all of you beautiful people who listen to us is that it actually doesn’t really matter very much because except for maybe once or twice, twice I think, we have not recorded a podcast in the same room.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, it was exactly twice and one of them we didn’t even use. So we only ever used one.

Emily Ladau:
Well no I thought we recorded one about the New York City Kid’s Project. We did that-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh right, yes.

Emily Ladau:
With your extremely fancy recorder setup that you bought.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Which we used completely wrong by the way. But that’s how we learned how to use it.

Emily Ladau:
And then never used it again, so that’s cool. And then the second one, I think was an impromptu recording on my laptop in Virginia after I fell in the shower.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It was, you’re right.

Emily Ladau:
Which, by the way, if you want a laugh you should really listen to the episode where I fell in the shower.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It says a lot about us that something like that happens to you and our first thought immediately after, “Get my butt up off the floor,” is, “We should talk about what just happened and put it on the internet.”

Emily Ladau:
I mean, that was definitely one of those, “You cannot make this stuff up,” kind of situations. So yeah, but other than that, I really don’t think that anyone has to worry. I think if anything there might be a brief hiatus while Kyle is settling in but it’s not like this podcast is going away. You don’t raise a baby to four years old and then desert it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, not us. If anything, once I get settled in, the podcast will continue with somewhat more regularity than it has been lately because you’re almost finished with your… Well I don’t want to jinx it, but you’re almost finished with your book, right?

Emily Ladau:
I mean, I am halfway through the acknowledgements and that’s the last thing I have to do really. I mean, I have to do a couple of probably minor edits along the way but everything else should be smoother sailing from here. And I know that Emily a year from now will listen back to this and laugh at herself for calling anything smooth sailing but here we are.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Present Emily is not as wise apparently, but wise enough to predict that so.

Emily Ladau:
Oh, in case you’re wondering and I really can’t remember, we probably have mentioned both the book and Seattle and your new job on the podcast before, but in case we haven’t, my book is about disability and Kyle’s job is related to disability. Who’s surprised? No one.

Kyle Khachadurian:
This is me pretending to be who is surprised. I didn’t say anything, get it? Because nobody.

Emily Ladau:
Oh I got it. It’s like those comments that are like [inaudible 00:06:37] right now like, “No one. Me.” Yeah, so boy we really just pushed ourselves right into the disability hole and stayed there.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I didn’t even do it on purpose. It just kind of happened.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. Well you’ve been back and forth between work related to disability and work not related to disability. Where I have been disability 24/7 since I graduated college. I mean, there’s something to be said for having some separation between work and your personal identity and the entirety of humanity. So I can actually see the merits of being a disabled person not working in the disability field.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, it’s funny. I haven’t made a big mistake at work yet. I’m going to virtually knock on wood because I don’t want to make noise. But having worked in this kind of space before, it hits different if your mistake… It’s like, “But I’m supposed to know better.” And it’s like, “But I am supposed to know better. Oh man.”

Emily Ladau:
Well, I mean, I’ve definitely made mistakes before. I’ve been ableist before and I’ve been called out on it before. And I was miserable when it happened. I would argue that it’s made me an overall better and more conscientious human being who needs to have the humility to admit that I’m still learning and just because I have a disability doesn’t mean I know everything about all disabilities. So yeah, I mean, but it is complicated when your identity collides with your professional life in more ways than just like you are what you do for work. It’s like, “No, I really am.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
Right. Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
But then it used to be so nice when you were working at your job that was not related to disability and you and I would go to some of the events that they would host. And I would be like, “Whoa, this has nothing to do with anything that I know about. This is great.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
All these rich white people and their fancy cheese plates.

Emily Ladau:
Okay. But I really liked the cheese plate. I got yelled at for being near the cheese plate.

Kyle Khachadurian:
We both did.

Emily Ladau:
I was told that I hovered near the cheese plate too long.

Kyle Khachadurian:
So I never got scolded at the job I just left ever because I was a good employee. But the one thing that they told me was that when Emily and myself go to events, we hover near the cheese plates too much.

Emily Ladau:
I got to be honest, there really wasn’t much else to do.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I mean, I regret nothing. If I ever go back to an event with those people, I will still hover around the cheese plate.

Emily Ladau:
I like cheese.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, stop having such a good cheese plate if you don’t want us to eat it.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, no, honestly so my problem is when I do not know what to do with myself at an event, I stay by the food and eat it. If I know a bunch of people and I’m comfortable, food is like the last thing on my mind. If I don’t know anyone, I’m like, “I’m going to go by the cheese plate.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
There’s like a radar in your head that’s like, “Food, food, food.”

Emily Ladau:
It’s just something to do because I feel awkward. And I can’t talk to anyone if I have a mouth full of cheese.

Kyle Khachadurian:
“Do you also like cheese.”

Emily Ladau:
That would honestly be my conversation starter. It really [crosstalk 00:10:11]-

Kyle Khachadurian:
That’s a hell of an ice breaker.

Emily Ladau:
Okay. I am judging myself so hard right now. I don’t know if it’s that I don’t like socializing or I like cheese or a combination of both. I think it’s both.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Is there a difference between those two statements? They sound exactly the same to me.

Emily Ladau:
You’re right. They’re exactly the same.

Kyle Khachadurian:
So-

Emily Ladau:
So…

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, you go.

Emily Ladau:
I don’t have anything else to add to the cheese conversation but I was going to say that I’m glad that we were able to catch people up a little bit on what we’ve been doing.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Definitely.

Emily Ladau:
It’s definitely been, as I’m sure it has been for everybody else, kind of a wild ride these past several months. It used to be like, “Oh, these past few weeks. These past couple of months.” And now it’s like, “No, this started in March and it’s the middle of August.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yep. Sure did.

Emily Ladau:
Oh my gosh. How’s your emotional state?

Kyle Khachadurian:
If I’m talking strictly about my personal life and myself, it’s fine, it’s great. It’s actually great. But if I’m talking about me in relation to the state of the world, I really still feel like the, “This is fine,” memes where it’s just like a dog sitting at a table and the whole apartment he’s in is on fire. And he’s trying to tell himself that he’s fine because in that brief second where he’s not on fire yet, he is fine. And that’s what I mean. Right now I am fine.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I mean, overall I feel like I’m lucky to say that I did fare relatively well so far. But, again, it’s also like you don’t know the flames that are surrounding you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yep.

Emily Ladau:
I feel like that needs a trigger warning because I’m triggering myself right now. No sarcasm, I’m very serious.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, no, it’s certainly raising my heartbeat as we speak.

Emily Ladau:
So let’s all take a deep breath.

Kyle Khachadurian:
What do you want to talk about today, Emily?

Emily Ladau:
Now that we’ve caught up a little bit, I actually really want to talk about etiquette because actually I bothered Kyle for a quote for my book and it was on etiquette. The whole book is not on etiquette but I wanted a quote on etiquette and I was like, “Who do I know who can talk to me about this?” And originally my thought was etiquette from the perspective of those awkward situations where you’re not really sure what to do like you being on a crowded train and asking someone for a seat. But it sort of morphed into a more general conversation about etiquette and now I think it’s worth talking about because there’s so much more to unpack there than I could ever fit in my book.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s funny because when you asked me, I came to the realization that I’ve never actually thought about it. Which in itself was strange to me given that not only am I disabled but the vast majority of people I know are also disabled. And it was a very hard question to ask because the very first thing I said to Emily was, “Well why do we need special etiquette? Isn’t the whole goal of our movement to be treated just like everybody else?” But the more I thought about it, the more confusing it got because, yes, ultimately we want to be treated just like everybody else. But sometimes we can’t do things like everybody else and that requires conscious thought on the part of everybody else.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And the quote is something that I can’t remember that Emily made sound amazing. But it basically boiled down to you shouldn’t overthink things but perhaps being conscience of someone else’s needs is the right thing to do even though ultimately you don’t want to have to think about it. But because disability is so individualistic, it’s probably better to think about it and act accordingly.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, honestly, no what you said made me have to stop and think because I had sort of always had this notion about how if you overthink things, that’s what makes it weird. But is there such a thing as under thinking? Because that can make it weird too.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, like if you don’t think at all. But that’s usually when you under think something, that’s sort of where awkwardness can happen. I think of this gif that I love, it’s like the funniest thing that I’ve ever seen. I don’t know what this man was doing but he was an archer without any arms. He uses his feet to be an archer and he hit a target and it was like the perfect hit, it was from far away, it was hard. It was very difficult. And the judge ran up to him and just did the handshake move, just went to shake his hand and the guy just looked at him and shrugged and then the judge gave him a friendly tap on the shoulder because you could clearly see his brain short circuit like, “Oh my god, I can’t believe what I just did.” And then he shook his foot.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That’s what under thinking gets you. And it makes me laugh every time. I’ve seen the thing like 100 times, it’s so funny. But also that’s something to learn from. I don’t blame the man for doing the thing that he’s done 100 times before to this guy. He’s just treating him like everybody else. But it was only when he realized, “Oh, wait a second, this guy can’t shake hands when you don’t have hands,” that the awkwardness set in. So perhaps if he thought about it for half a second before he did that then that could have been avoided. But then again, had he done that, this amazing gif that gives me pleasure and happiness every day would not exist. So perhaps this was for the best.

Emily Ladau:
Well, it’s actually really funny when you think about it also because we are socialized to think that shaking hands is absolutely the proper etiquette. We’re socialized to think that what you do when you meet someone or want to congratulate someone or just want to say hello someone is you hold your hand out and you shake hands. And so we have to adjust our notion of what’s proper etiquette and that’s hard because we’re taught that stuff like that should be instinctual. Go in for that handshake.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And people judge you for it too. Were you taught that as a woman? I know that’s kind of a sexist question but like as a man growing up and as a boy, I was taught, “Have a firm handshake, people will judge you.’ And I didn’t get it until I became an adult and realized that people actually really do judge you for having a weird handshake if you do have one.

Emily Ladau:
I mean, I don’t know that anybody has ever specifically told me that I should have a firm handshake. But I actually do have a firm handshake. And I’ve been told that I have one. And I think they say it almost as a matter of they’re surprised because I am a disabled woman.

Kyle Khachadurian:
When shaking hands becomes a thing again, which it never should by the way, it’s like objectively disgusting. I don’t know how we went through millennia just doing that, we all should shake Emily’s hands.

Emily Ladau:
Ugh. I actually really don’t like handshakes. They make me a little uncomfortable because I always find myself having to apologize. My hand is either sweaty and clammy or it’s cold because I’ve just been outside or it’s like wet because I was holding something with condensation. Handshakes are just utterly awkward to me.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And especially… I don’t know if people do this to you because you’re a woman and it’s super sexist of me to say but sometimes when I shake hands with a man, what they’ll do is they’ll do the squeeze thing and I don’t know what that is. If that’s some kind of weird power move or whatever. I don’t squeeze but I do if you squeeze because if you’re squeezing my hand I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no. I’m winning this. I’m not going to let you crush my hand. I’m going to crush your hand.” No, but it’s stupid. What is this weird battle of attrition that I’m in with you? I just met you.

Emily Ladau:
Well it’s that thing that Donald Trump was doing and-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh yeah, he does the yank.

Emily Ladau:
Where he like grabs your hand and pulls it back.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
Ugh.

Kyle Khachadurian:
This isn’t about handshakes but our point is that even things as mundane as a handshake, which you probably don’t really think about in your day to day life are effected when you’re interacting with people with disabilities. It’s very easy to say, “Treat us like everybody else.” But it’s kind of hard to do that when your needs are different.

Emily Ladau:
Well I would counter that a little bit with I think you can treat us like everybody else by treating each one of us as an individual. I think that we should be looking at everybody as an individual. I mean, there are non disabled people who don’t like handshakes or who are adverse to hugging or whatever. And I just think that to treat everyone the same, to me, means to treat everyone with the notion that not everyone is the same. Is that way too paradoxical or does that make sense?

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, no. I get it. We have to focus on the outcome and not the framework, right? You can say, “Oh I’m going to treat you all the same because I’m going to shake everyone’s hand and I don’t care whether or not you hate it, I’m treating everyone the same. Whether or not you hated it was irrelevant because I’m doing the same thing to everybody.” But what we should be doing is saying something like, “Okay, how do I greet everybody, which is what the same is in this case, in a way that they’re comfortable with?”

Kyle Khachadurian:
Now I’m not saying that you have to like completely change how you personally decide that you greet people. But for example, it’s not that weird to ask somebody if they would like a hug before you hug them. But some people, just like how some people reach out to shake hands, just like to barrel into you and give you a hug. Perhaps that will change given the current climate that we’re in right now. But perhaps it won’t, but we’ll still do that. That’s strange to me, right?

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I’ve actually published on Rooted in Rights and also read a couple of blog posts by autistic people who are like, “I love social distancing. More of this please.” And quite frankly, yeah, I really agree. I recognize that autistic people may specifically have sensory sensitivities to make it so that they prefer space apart from people. But yeah, I also don’t want you too close to me. One of my biggest pet peeves is people leaning on my chair or like I’m an arm rest unless I know them. Like you can do whatever you want. Or people who are standing really, really close to me but they’re really, really tall and so I have to crane my neck to look up at them. And it’s just like I want so much personal space. Please, back up.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I think if I tell people, “Hey, you really should ask before you hug someone,” I think that most people would understand that. I don’t know if they’d change their view immediately. But I think they would understand what I’m getting at. But a wheelchair is kind of different. And I wish it wasn’t, but it is. And I’m curious if you find it harder to convince people that your wheelchair is an extension of you? When someone touches your chair, I know you say like, “Don’t touch me.” And I feel like that’s harder for people to understand… everyone knows what, “Don’t touch me,” means.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But to them that’s an object, whereas to you it’s an extension of you. Now I agree that it is. I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate. But I’m asking you like as a woman who uses a wheelchair, do you find that that’s kind of difficult to convey to people given the right context. Obviously I’m not asking you to yell at people at the train station and give them a lecture like why you’re trying to go somewhere.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I mean, I’ve taken two subtle cues at this point. Like if someone is resting on me, I’ll like move or back up or reposition myself because I don’t really know what else to do. But yeah, I mean, I’m big into personal space. But on the flip side of that and this isn’t exactly etiquette but there was a really long time where, and I don’t quite know how to articulate this but I used to think about how people would meet someone in a bar who they were interested in. And there would be flirtations and body language and touch.

Emily Ladau:
And I used to think that my wheelchair was not even so much like a force field in the sense of like repelling people because they weren’t interested in a woman in a wheelchair but more like it was a physical barrier that would make people think that they could not have access to touch me. And therefore, in the same way that you can watch people’s body language as they get closer and closer at a bar, I felt like I had a box around me. And the only time people wanted to violate my space and enter the box was in some sort of patronizing or rude way.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. See that’s really interesting to me because if somebody were to come up to you, I’m not going to say like flirt with your wheelchair, but imagine you’re at a bar and someone comes to you and flirts with you. Off putting or not, I feel like that’s… I use this term very loosely, better than somebody who uses your wheelchair as a shoulder rest because at least in the first example, they are treating you like how they would a patron at a bar, right? Where the force field is there but they’re ignoring it because they recognize that you’re a person and not just a cyborg or a machine.

Emily Ladau:
Right. Exactly. I’m also thinking about hugging from your perspective because I know that you’re a little wobbly. So someone coming full force at you isn’t great either.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s really not. And I don’t particularly like… That’s not true, I love hugs. But I don’t particularly like hugs from strangers. But it doesn’t take-

Emily Ladau:
Do you like warm hugs like Olaf?

Kyle Khachadurian:
I do. It doesn’t take much. Like after you say hello and tell me what your name is, I’ll hug you. But not at first. It’s not that hard. It’s just not a first greeting for me. From a practically physical standpoint, don’t hug me unless I know you’re going to. It’s not that I don’t appreciate surprises. It’s just it’ll probably knock me over and then we’ll both feel bad. Except I shouldn’t feel bad but I don’t anyway.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, no, not your fault if someone just like hug attacked you. But it’s so funny, you have a very distinct way of hugging me. And I think this may be a thing that you do with all wheelchair users who are shorter than you where I don’t know that you can necessarily do the like bend and lean and hug. So you sort of do this… And maybe this is just me because we’re like best friends, but you just like smash my face into your chest hug.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh okay. Yes, than answer is yes. I’m very short for people who don’t know me. I’m like 5’3″. But most wheelchair users are shorter than me even when they’re not because they use wheelchairs. And couple that with it’s hard for me to do that bend and bow thing, right? So yeah, I do hug wheelchair users differently but I hug you different-lier.

Emily Ladau:
I totally get it. Yeah, no, like full face smash.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, yeah. I don’t do that to everyone.

Emily Ladau:
My glasses are dirty after I hug you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. I don’t do that to everybody. But-

Emily Ladau:
But…

Kyle Khachadurian:
I do hug wheelchair users differently. And it’s weird. Okay, this is strange. It’s easier for me to hug a wheelchair user than somebody who’s standing up because-

Emily Ladau:
No, I totally get that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
A wheelchair has weight to it. And a person doesn’t really.

Emily Ladau:
I actually strongly object to hugging a lot of standing up people because they do this really awkward one armed situation where my face ends up in their armpit or on their boob. And if you can bend over, why are you not bending over? You’re making this really awkward for me.

Kyle Khachadurian:
See, but I feel like that’s a thing with… I’m sure a wheelchair makes it worse, but I agree with that. I think if you’re someone who’s going to half ass a hug, don’t. Just shake my hand. If I’m going to hug you, I’m going to hug you like I like you because if I’m going to hug you, I do like you. So just like commit to it.

Emily Ladau:
Wow, that’s such great logic. Yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, but seriously commit to it though. I hate side hugs. Side hugs are like the worst thing.

Emily Ladau:
I can’t decide if this is more a conversation about etiquette or about personal space or handshakes or hugging or maybe all three.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I think the disability kind of makes it different though. Even if I say that it’s only different because of the equipment that we use, which I wouldn’t. I would say it’s more than that. But like even something as small as your wheelchair in that example, makes things like greetings different. What if you’re in a building that’s not wheelchair accessible but does have a wheelchair accessible entrance. And he person you’re meeting there greets you in the accessible lobby and then you go in the elevator and you get to the door and, oh no, it’s not wide enough. Now it’s really weird, right? No amount of handshakes and hugging is going to make that okay at all. So-

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, and then you’re just in an awkward situation.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, I don’t know why… That’s just plain weird.

Emily Ladau:
But I get where you’re coming from. I mean, exchanging pleasantries isn’t going to fix an awkward situation.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But it’s also hard because I find it, and I’m a person with a disability. I don’t mind asking slightly awkward questions in order to make sure your needs are met. I’ve done that my whole life. But even I would struggle with somebody whose disability that I either don’t know or don’t know about. So because I am knowledgeable, because I ask you, “What is your disability?” The reason I ask you is because I generally know once I hear it how to accommodate you.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, I can definitely see that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But if you have a disability that I’ve never heard of or if you need something that either I’m unfamiliar with or you need something in a way that I’m unfamiliar with it, instinctually what I want to do is ask you more questions like before helping you. Which is totally not the right thing to do. But I have to like fight myself because-

Emily Ladau:
No, maybe it is the right thing to do though. I mean, it’s so hard because it’s considered poor etiquette in and of itself to like pepper people with questions about their disability but on the other hand, if somebody asks me valid questions about how they can help or accommodate me, I don’t mind. That’s really a lot different than someone coming up and being like, “Can you have sex?” Very different.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. But see that speaks to a larger issue and I know this is something we’ve talked about like ad nauseum. But I don’t know what it is about having a disability that makes it so that a person’s curiosity about another person overrides being polite and having etiquette. But for someone in a wheelchair, they don’t care. They just go up to you and just it’s something about having four wheels that just makes every social rule that they’ve ever learned not matter anymore. And I don’t understand why that is. And it’s not even just the wheelchair because I get it too. But I’ve also been with you enough to know that a wheelchair is like you may as well be wearing a sign that says, “Ask me about my vagina.” Or whatever, right?

Emily Ladau:
Oh and then what’s the movie where the guy is in the hotdog costume and it’s like, “Ask me about my wiener”?

Kyle Khachadurian:
oh my god, what was that? It’s like a Seth Rogen movie.

Emily Ladau:
It actually probably definitely is. But anyway, wow, that was really cultured of me. Yeah, etiquette is such a funny thing. And we are really socialized to think that it’s supposed to be instinctual but I actually think we’d all do better if we took a beat and thought about it a little bit.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But I guess that’s really the crux of it for me, right? What about having a disability makes it not matter to you? Not you, the people doing it. Why is it okay?

Emily Ladau:
Oh you mean like the not the person who has the disability but what is it about non-disabled people thinking that they can just get away with whatever they want?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. I honestly want to know if there’s a reason that we as a people, as a group of people don’t know about. I mean, by god, please tell us so we can fix it. Not that it’s our problem to fix.

Emily Ladau:
I was going to say fix yourselves people. Get it together. Yeah, look, I get it. Etiquette in and of itself is like a formal thing and it feels awkward and it feels weird but like just be chill.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’m really glad you said that because I’ve also… I mean, we like to make fun of people who ask us really blatantly personal questions but those people, to me, are less annoying than the people who are like, “Listen, if you need anything, and I mean anything, anything at all, just you ask me, okay? I don’t care if I’m talking to someone, I don’t care if I’m on the other side of the room, you interrupt what I’m saying and you come up to me and you ask me for help. I’m your person. I’m here to help you, you, you.” And they just ham it in like they’re your little servant that exists while you’re in the room with them to do anything at all that you ask for.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And those people annoy me so much worse because at least the people who ask me blatantly personal questions can see I’m a person. They don’t care that I’m a person, they don’t care about privacy. But they get it. But when it’s someone who’s like throwing themselves at me but not in a flirtatious way but rather in a person help way, I am as off put as I am with someone who’s flirting with me that I’m not into. It’s like, “Get away from me. I do not like this.”

Emily Ladau:
That is so funny. I don’t think I’ve ever been able to articulate that but yeah the over offerers of help, the people who ask you 25 times even though you said, “No thank you,” the first 24 times. And it’s like I promise I am going to tell you if I need help. I really will. And I don’t know if you’ve done this at all but there are have been times where people have offered to help me so many times that I literally just take them up on it because I would rather they stop asking me.

Emily Ladau:
Have I ever talked about… I mean, we’ve been doing this podcast for so long, I can’t remember what stories I’ve told anymore. But I was on a business trip to DC and there were these two old white dudes who were following me. They saw me heading in a certain direction and I was rolling a suitcase along side me and I very clearly had it handled. And they were like, “Can we help you? Where are you going? Let us help you. Can we help you? Where are you going? Let us help you.” On repeat. And I was scared because I was like, “I do not want you to help me with my suitcase all the way to my hotel. I don’t want you knowing where I’m staying.” So I finally let the roll it and then I made up… I think I’m pretty sure I made up where I was going. And-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Just in case they offered to help you.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. No I literally threw them off and I was like, “Oh okay. I’m good from here.” Like-

Kyle Khachadurian:
And the worst part about that is when they realized that they got duped, they went to where you told them to go, their first thought probably wouldn’t be, “Oh man. That person told us a fake address because we’re being creepy.” Their first thought is, “That poor crippled girl doesn’t know where she’s going.”

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I mean, I just really… You offer one too many times and you go from being a thoughtful person to a please get away from me right now before I call for help person.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. And this is something we have talked about on the show before but like if you dare to show even an ounce of resistance, all of a sudden you are the world’s rudest person.

Emily Ladau:
That is so true.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And that makes me angry because it’s like, “Oh, okay. If you know what is perceived as rude then I know you know how to behave like a person. So that means that you know that what you’re doing is annoying.”

Emily Ladau:
I love the huffy people who are like, “Ugh. I was just trying to help.” But then, okay, here’s the other thing that’s really funny is sometimes I get annoyed when I very visibly need help and nobody helps me. The flip side of that is like, “Come on. You see me struggling. You’re right there. Open the door.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
“I’m in a wheelchair.”

Emily Ladau:
Like, “You saw me drop my suitcase. Pick it up.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s the one day a year I get to pull this card and no one is doing anything.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. Or like, “I cannot reach the napkins at the restaurant. Please help. And you really see my struggling. Come on.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
You’re not like hesitant to ask somebody for help, are you?

Emily Ladau:
No, I actually totally will ask for help. But I usually kind of hope that someone will just pick up on the fact that I need it and do it for me. Yeah, I am total double standards but whatever.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But to add to that even further, when you wish somebody would help you and then they do and the stars align and it’s just like God himself sent a helper out just to help you pick something up off the floor. It’s just like, “Yes. My prayers have been answered.”

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, but I am also the type of person who would rather struggle mightily sometimes than ask for help too. It depends on the day. But like my big thing, and this was obviously pre-pandemic, was when I would travel for work and I would have so many bags. And sometimes I would just like fight with them and try to get the all in and out of the hotel room myself rather than dare to ask for help and now I have finally realized that there is a bell hop whose job it is to assist you with luggage. Ask for help.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And not only that, it’s his job to help all the people that are way more able bodied than you and also help you. So like if these people have no problem asking this guy to haul their crap, so should you, dang it.

Emily Ladau:
Right. But it’s always a point of pride for me. All though I have to say, so the one thing that I really love about a bellman helping me to my room and getting my bags off my chair, is almost… I would say almost 100% of the time, they always say, “If you need anything, my name is so and so and you just call down for help and I’ll come up and help you, okay?” And I’m like, “Thanks, friend.” And it’s always the doorman of a hotel or the bellhop or whatever the case may be, they’re just so kind. I remember I stayed at a Marriott once for about a week. And me and the doorman were best friends by the time I left because he just wanted to make sure I was okay and look after me and that’s the kind of help I don’t mind.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Right. Just a watchful eye and the important part though is the ask. It’s the offer and then they let you sit with it. You can decide to ask them for help or no. You can decide you need them or you don’t.

Emily Ladau:
Right. But also it wasn’t like 27 times. It was just like, “I’m here if you need me.” And I’m like, “Thank you. That’s really nice.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, because they’re letting you make the decision as opposed to forcing it on you.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. Look, I mean, honestly I feel like not disabled people have got to be really confused by disabled people. I get it because there’s a lot of rules here but I hope we can demystify and debunk some of them. But one never knows in this world and I guess, ultimately, I value kindness. That’s probably my key takeaway actually is that I value kindness but the thing is that kindness doesn’t always look like offers of help. Kindness sometimes looks like knowing when to offer help and when not to. Do you have a final takeaway?

Kyle Khachadurian:
If you want to help a disabled person, before you do, ask yourself, “Would I think this weird if I were doing it to me?” And if the answer is yes, don’t do it that way.

Emily Ladau:
Well that’s it. Brilliant.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Disabled people are just people and I know that’s our whole point of the show. But when it comes to treating us kindly, just treat us kindly. Most of us will be very helpful back in our specific needs in a way that helps both of us. And so just kind of follow our lead.

Emily Ladau:
Take our cues. Phew, this has been an adventure talk about etiquette. How are we feeling now? Do we feel like we’ve covered our bases? Do we feel good? It’s been a while since we’ve podcast so.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I think so.

Emily Ladau:
I’m glad we talked that out.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I feel like a lot of people are going to have more questions than answers apparently because especially when we said sometimes we love it. But just know as confused as you are, it’s just as confusing to us.

Emily Ladau:
We’re all just trying to get through this thing called life. Oh that’s so cheesy. Wow, I hate myself for saying that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
This is has been another quarantined episode of The Accessible Stall. I am Kyle.

Emily Ladau:
I’m Emily-

Kyle Khachadurian:
She’s… Okay.

Emily Ladau:
I am okay. Oh, and wear a mask, wash your hands.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You look great today. Your smile is still very pretty despite it being under your mask that you’re definitely wearing.

Emily Ladau:
It’s radiant, you are radiant. And if you’re wearing a mask and washing your hands and social distancing, you are especially radiant.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You are the reason that we’re going to be able to go do stuff soon.

Emily Ladau:
Goodnight everybody.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Find us at patreon.com/theaccessiblestall. Just one dollar a month means that every current and future episode of The Accessible Stall remains accessible. Thank you.

Emily Ladau:
And it really is, it really is.

Kyle Khachadurian:
All of our episodes are accessible now thanks to people like you.

Emily Ladau:
Love you. Bye.