Emily Ladau:
Hello. So before you start listening to today’s episode, we want to give a very important content warning that we are going to be talking about abortion. We are going to be talking about everything that is going on with Roe vs Wade. We’re going to be sharing our personal viewpoints and we’re going to be doing it in relation to disability. So, if this is something that would in any way trigger or upset you, we really encourage you to turn off this episode. You are in no way obligated to listen. We promise that we will still love you. And might we say you do still look fabulous today?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Totally great. Completely fabulous.

Emily Ladau:
On that note. Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily Ladau:
And you are listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I know you just said it, Emily, but say it again for me please. What are we going to talk about today?

Emily Ladau:
We need to talk about Roe vs Wade, and we really need to dive deep into disability and bodily autonomy and choices.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Choices, what an interesting word.

Emily Ladau:
Guess what everyone? We’re pro-choice, breaking it into you early.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh man, I was kind of hoping you’d do like the Pee-wee’s Playhouse thing. The word of the day is … nevermind. [inaudible 00:01:26] serious-

Emily Ladau:
This episode is brought to you by.

Kyle Khachadurian:
The letter C.

Emily Ladau:
For choice. You know, when we make light of things though, it’s not because we are making light of the situation. It’s because some of this is so absurd that we even have to talk about it, that if you can’t just have a moment of levity, then how are you even going to cope?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Absolutely and we know how serious this is. We are also two friends that are bantering back and forth and not just two hosts putting on a show, don’t forget that.

Emily Ladau:
And we’ve been talking about this a lot too. This is not like it’s our first rodeo having this conversation. We’ve been thinking about it and picking it apart behind the scenes to really get comfortable with how we wanted to present it here too.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Having said that, let’s present it. We are pro-choice. I would like to start with defining what pro-choice is, only because in my life I’ve seen people on the internet claim to be pro-life and then make pro-choice arguments.

Emily Ladau:
Kyle, are you about to mansplain being pro-choice to our audience?

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, no, God, no. I really just want to make sure that people listening know where we’re coming from. I am in literally no position to mansplain anything like this. I feel weird being here.

Emily Ladau:
Now, before we level set though, with how we are defining things, I do think that we should clarify that neither of us have personal experience with abortion and we fully respect that there are many people who do, and we are not coming from that particular viewpoint.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Or not do, too. I respect people who choose not to have them also. That is not what this is about.

Emily Ladau:
Oh, I was like not do what? Okay, anyway, do, go on.

Kyle Khachadurian:
In the context of this episode and most other contexts, pro-choice just means that you don’t want to remove a person’s right to terminate a pregnancy. Broadly speaking, or do anything else with their body.

Emily Ladau:
And I think that’s really important to understand, especially because the concept of abortion in general can raise a lot of ethical questions, regardless of whether you are pro-choice or not. I never want to take away a woman’s right to choose, a person’s right to choose, excuse me. But I feel very strongly that is challenging to talk about abortion, especially for me as someone who has a disability, a genetic disability. So, I have some very strong feels on abortion. I also have really strong feels on being pro-choice and those two things are not at odds. I think the way that a lot of people think, they are.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Do tell.

Emily Ladau:
So for a while, I try to describe myself as someone who is pro-choice and pro-life in the sense that I believe in someone’s right to choose but I also believe that I would not want to terminate a pregnancy on the basis of something like a disability, or something like that. So, I believed in bringing that baby to full term and not choosing abortion. So, I was trying to convey that abortion would not be my personal choice, but I want that choice. It’s a really tough thing to talk about because I, in no way, want to use this conversation to make value judgements on the lives of disabled people or quite frankly, on what people choose to do with their bodies. If they happen to be pregnant with a baby who might have a disability, or if they themselves are disabled and the pregnancy is just not going to be a viable one, or a safe one for them. So, abortion’s a complicated topic, but I just don’t want people throwing it back in my face that I must be a bad disability activist and a bad disabled person if I’m also pro-choice.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Abortion is a complicated topic, being pro-choice isn’t. The reason I giggled when you said your description is because I used to describe myself extremely similarly, and I did not know that’s how you used to describe yourself. I used to say … No, I’m serious. I used to say I am pro-choice but I’m anti-abortion. I used to say that all the time, it’s embarrassing,

Kyle Khachadurian:
Broadly speaking, okay, yeah. But no, I am more pro-choice now than I was a year ago and I was pretty, gosh dang pro-choice then. I don’t care why somebody wants to terminate a pregnancy. I don’t care when they do it. I don’t care about any of that. If you want to do it, you should be able to do it. Everyone who says, “Oh, but you got to draw the line somewhere.” Yeah the day before you go into labor? That’s my line. I don’t care at all. In fact, honestly, I only said the day before labor, because I don’t actually know, if you were to terminate a pregnancy in labor, if that’s like technically a different thing. If it’s not, I still don’t care. I don’t care. You have the right to do that. I don’t care if your baby’s disabled. I don’t care what your reason is.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Every time this debate comes up, especially in the United States, probably other places, but I can only speak from here. You see people say, “Oh well, I would prefer to be pro-life, but you have to think about the people who … ” and then they list like a set of extremely horrible circumstances in which they think abortion is okay. I literally don’t have that list. It’s always okay. But having said that, if it were up to me, which it can never be, of course I would want personally for every other step to be taken before that, but since it’s up to me, then I don’t care. It’s not up to me. See how easy that is?

Emily Ladau:
Yeah and I think in your life, your very personal life, if a pregnant person chooses to include the not pregnant partner or person in the conversation. Great, awesome, very cool. Love that for you, I really do. I’m not saying that lightly, but it remains the pregnant person’s choice and to me, this all comes down to a bigger conversation around bodily autonomy and the fact that disabled people are rarely afforded bodily autonomy to begin with and then they’re saying, “Hey, we’re just going to take this other form of bodily autonomy away from you, but really we’re doing it because we’re good people and we care about disability. Don’t you see? That’s why we don’t want people to have abortions because we want more people just like you. Except no, we don’t. Because as soon as they’re born, we’re like, ‘Oh well, screw them.’ ”

Kyle Khachadurian:
I mean, I was going to wait until later in the episode to go on this rant, but the segue is just too good. If people who claim to be pro-life were, as they claim to be, we would have adequate access to contraception in this country. We would have adequate paternity leave and I use that term to mean both parents in this country. We would have adequate sex education. The funding of Planned Parenthood would never be a political football. We’d have laws protecting abortion rights, which we don’t. We have one Supreme Court decision that’s going to go away. We’d have stuff that I’m not even able to think about right now. And we don’t, it’s not because we don’t want to. It’s because the people that are in charge and the powers that be are not pro-life, they are pro-forced birth. And that is the only thing that they are, despite what they might tell you. I’m saying that only about the people in charge, I’m not saying that about you, listener who might be pro-life who frankly, they have fooled into thinking that you and them are on the same side. You are not.

Emily Ladau:
And quite frankly, it is incredibly, incredibly cruel to say that you are pro-life and not care about the life of the pregnant person and only care about the life of the embryo until it’s a full-blown baby in the world.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. But only while it’s in utero though, once it’s born, [inaudible 00:11:02].

Emily Ladau:
Exactly, once it’s born. Truly forget it. I think I was reading something the other day. It was a whole George Carlin comedy bit about how you’re only pro-life until they leave the womb, but it’s honestly true.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, that’s The Accessible Stall … that’s the sanitary quote of what he said. No, absolutely.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, I kept that clean, as clean as I possibly could.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That’s why I have a big grin on my face.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I know you know what I’m talking about, but I can’t stop talking about this in relation to disability, even though there’s so many other aspects to this, but I, as somebody who has a genetic physical disability that was passed on to me, have been thinking quite frequently as this conversation about Roe vs Wade is going on, about the fact that my mother and father could easily have chosen abortion as the route for me, when they found out while she was pregnant, that I had a disability. I think often about the fact that right now, and maybe potentially forever, pregnancy is not a super viable option for me physically. And if I did become pregnant, there would be a lot of reasons why I might have to consider terminating. That’s a really tough thing to think about, but it would be a lot easier to think about if I didn’t have to also think about the fact that there are people who don’t think that should be my right to make that decision. I need to clarify, I live in New York. I know I’m not super at risk here in the same way that a lot of other people are, especially in different places around the country, and people of color, and people who don’t have means and resources. That doesn’t mean I’m not scared.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But that’s the reason why everyone should be pro-choice because you can’t decide where you’re born. Where you’re born should not determine your future and it does unfortunately, in a lot of ways, and this is just another way that it would, if we lose this right. It’s unfortunate that it does it all, but I mean any way that we can either prevent that or make it less so in the future is good in my view of the world, this is included within that. There’s just so many arguments you can make, you can make the slippery slope argument. It’s like, okay, you take abortion away. What’s next? Same sex marriage, probably. Other medically necessary procedures? Who knows? HIPAA, sure.

Emily Ladau:
I was just going to say, I think HIPAA’s a joke anyway.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I mean, yeah, it is. I learned that from John Oliver, all people, which is a huge problem, I shouldn’t have to learn that from a guy on YouTube who makes a funny comedy news show.

Emily Ladau:
That’s sort of the crux of a lot of the conversation that we’re having right now, is you and I try to have informed viewpoints and opinions, but it is just as easy for someone to learn from YouTube that life begins at the moment of conception and to see pictures of fetuses that were aborted and to make judgments about things that they know nothing about.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That’s why I’m here. That’s why I’m doing this episode. I can’t speak for you. I know that’s part of it for you, but that’s literally why I’m here, especially as the person who cannot get pregnant. It’s very easy to make fun of people who are pro-life, but I actually don’t like that. There are a lot of, I don’t want to say good reasons, but there are a lot of valid reasons why you personally might feel like you would never terminate a pregnancy, and that is 100% within your right to make that choice for yourself. But that’s exactly the point, it is your choice to do that. Don’t take away anyone else’s. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean that it should be the law of land. And also I would go as far to say, I don’t think anyone likes it, to be clear. I don’t think that’s something, that terminating a pregnancy, is something that anyone looks forward to in the way they look forward to an ice cream cone. It’s not something people like.

Emily Ladau:
Right. It’s just so reductive to act like abortion is not this huge, weighty decision. I mean, I’m sure that there are plenty of people who make the decision without a strong emotional feeling either way. But I also think that there are plenty of people who have extremely strong emotions and struggle mightily before making that choice. And who are you to make someone feel guilty about that choice?

Kyle Khachadurian:
That’s why I chose the silly ice cream analogy, because I was like, what’s something everyone actually likes? I know there’s people that don’t like ice cream, but that’s the point that I was trying to convey. And I really appreciate the fact that you very, very clearly articulated it way better, without a silly analogy. Thank you.

Emily Ladau:
No, but the ice cream thing stands because I think people are very quick to assume that we’re just trivializing it. That if you’re pro-choice that you’re trivializing the weight of abortion and quite frankly, it’s the opposite. I’m honoring the fact that it is a huge decision and a personal decision.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I also want to say that there surely are people whose lives are better for having done it. So, when I say no one likes it, I don’t mean that they don’t like the life that they were able to afford because they had one. I mean only in that moment, walking through those doors, getting it done. If you are someone who actually looked forward to it in the way that I’m describing, I would genuinely want to hear from you. I’m not being funny. That to me is … I can’t imagine that.

Emily Ladau:
I’m sure there are people who exist, who were genuinely like, “Yeah, this pregnancy is not for me. I’m pretty pumped to end it.” And cool. I also respect that that is how you feel about that. The other thing that I keep thinking about too though, is this is one of those issues that no matter what we say, what talking points we have, I just feel like the people who are already pro-choice are going to be nodding their heads and they’re going to be like, “Yep, totally agree with you.” And the people who are pro-life are going to be like, “This is garbage and I’m turning off this episode and I don’t want to listen to this.” I think it is the kind of thing where we are so divided and people’s minds are so made up in so many ways. I’m trying to imagine the efficacy of two disabled people talking and trying to be like, “Hey actually, here’s why you should be pro-choice.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’ll say it like this, you and I both came up with the concept of this idea together, separately. You were coming at it from a woman’s rights perspective, which I obviously 100% respect. I was coming at it from a bodily autonomy perspective, which is … that’s what this episode is but it wasn’t about … The concept of, oh, it’s a woman’s right, or a person’s, right to choose, it’s so not about the … The controlling women narrative is a wholly right wing thing. And yes, that’s what they’re doing, but I’m so like, “No, don’t do anything to my body. I don’t care if it’s abortion. I don’t care if it’s one drop of blood.”

Emily Ladau:
I think that’s where the disability angle comes back into it because-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Absolutely.

Emily Ladau:
And we were mentioning this a little bit before, but there is so much that’s forced upon disabled people. I mean, it’s an odd combination of topics, but I think about forced sterilization on disabled people.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yep, don’t like that either.

Emily Ladau:
So, it’s like on the one hand you want to prevent disabled people from procreating. On the other hand, you’re saying, “If that baby is disabled, you still need to give birth to it.” It’s very confusing. I have emotional whiplash over all this.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, yeah, because if the baby is disabled, who’s going to support it? The state. And if the baby is disabled, well they might not be able to make more babies and that’s the only gosh dang thing that matters. I’m sorry.

Emily Ladau:
Or be [inaudible 00:20:15] under capitalism.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I just did a stereotypical Southern accent, I do not want to … That was very wrong of me to do it. I’m going to keep that in there because I shouldn’t have done that. There are pro-life and pro-choice people everywhere.

Emily Ladau:
It’s interesting you said that. I didn’t pick up on that. I just thought you were putting on some kind of voice to show that you were being sarcastic.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I was. I was, but the voice I chose was a group of people who that’s not a good … I shouldn’t do that.

Emily Ladau:
We got to check ourselves. We’ve also been, I guess people have probably noticed already, checking ourselves on gendering this conversation.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. Trans people exist, sorry. Actually I’m not sorry, but it’s news to people somehow, still.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. And it’s also been very interesting to be a part of a relatively left-leaning pro-choice conversation spaces, namely Twitter, of course. That’s what I surround myself with and to see that even within the disability community, of course like everything else, there’s so much divide over how to talk about this. There’s so much divide over who gets a seat at the table to talk about this. There’s still so much exclusion in the language that’s used, in the way that the conversation is presented, in who gets to tell their story and have their perspectives heard. So, I just want to remind people that as much as being pro-choice is a very, very individualized thing, everybody has their own right to have that choice to make that decision, don’t forget that this is bigger than you, this is not just about you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well that’s the thing, right?

Emily Ladau:
Does that make sense?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, no, that’s the point though, isn’t it? Or at least one of them that we’re trying to make, is that being pro-life is a perfect way to live your life if you want to. It’s not good at all to have that forced upon people. Regardless of what your underlying moral intent is, I’m sure there are people who really have good intentions when they feel that way. And if it works for them, it works for them. But think about what that means. It’s beyond abortion and it’s beyond any one of us.

Emily Ladau:
It also scares me because I already feel like as a disabled person, there are ways in which access to reproductive healthcare is so limited to me. I think about a lot, the fact that Planned Parenthood, for example, is meant to be this bastion of reproductive rights. And yet, I often feel as a disabled person, like there’s not always room for me in conversations about reproductive healthcare and reproductive rights. A perfect example of that was back in college, I had to do some kind of project evaluating the accessibility of a facility that people might use. I wanted to go in and find out about the accessibility of my local Planned Parenthood. I called them and asked them if I could and they said no. And to me, that really felt like they had something to hide.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, that’s true.

Emily Ladau:
And that’s was tough to grapple with. Interestingly now, I do volunteer with Planned Parenthood in my state. Actually not volunteer, it is a paid advisory role to provide-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, so you got there.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, I needed to … I said volunteer, but I realized that was actually not true, to provide guidance on an accessible and inclusive sex ed curriculum.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That is awesome, I love that.

Emily Ladau:
It’s really great and I love it, but the fact that this is still a specialized, niche conversation that we are having and the fact that it’s an advisory role and not necessarily something that’s just always been built in to the work of pro-choice advocates, is also hard for me to square.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I mean the left has its blind spots, I’m not going to …

Emily Ladau:
Oh, you just said blind spots, Kyle.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I sure did and I meant it too because they … No, I mean, I’m not … This isn’t just to bash right … I know you’re talking about the fact that I use that expression, but this isn’t just the bash right wing people show. No, this is part of what checking yourself looks like. Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I mean the reality is that we could bleep and cut and edit so much, but then we wouldn’t be being real people who are learning and trying to constantly do better.

Kyle Khachadurian:
In an effort not to make … I’ve been pretty snarky this episode. If you are someone who isn’t worried about the overturning of Roe because you are pro-life, I encourage you to look up what the decision would actually do. If you don’t know, it would cede the right to determine a woman’s right to choose to the states, which depending on your political belief, you may or may not care about states’ rights to do whatever they want. I personally like a few of them and hate a few of them. I don’t think abortion or a woman’s right to choose, or a person’s right to choose what to do with their body, is something that should be left up to the states. Things like metro systems, stuff like that, sure. I mean, not really, I’d love a federal metro system too, but that’s what I’m talk … medical stuff has no business being left up to the states because what if you live in a state where such laws have already been passed? Like Texas and probably soon Florida, if not already, by the time we release this. It’s just not good.

Kyle Khachadurian:
If you’re someone who believes in the American idea of freedom, what kind of freedom is that dude? Honestly, ask yourself that. That’s not freedom. You can’t decide what you want to do with your body. For what?

Emily Ladau:
I have to say something because I’m already waiting for these comments. But I remember a while ago when I was trying to sort through people who say that the government should not have anything to do with your body and then bring up the conversation about vaccines. I really just need to get out of the way, right the heck now-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Thank you for doing that.

Emily Ladau:
… abortion and vaccines are two very different conversations. You know why? Because one literally only has an effect on one person’s body, but getting vaccinated affects everyone. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s important to keep in mind too … By the way, that was beautiful as are you, that if you outlaw abortion, I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this, it’s not going to go away. People who are determined to end a pregnancy will do it it’s just less safe now.

Emily Ladau:
It’s going to be real dangerous.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s way less safe now. I don’t know about you, but I like it when the person doing my medical procedures is a doctor.

Emily Ladau:
I also like it when it’s a doctor who’s doing something without feeling like they’re about to get carted away for doing something. If you’re so pro-life, then what about the life of the person who has the baby inside of them? I just have so many questions. I have so many questions. We’re not convincing anyone who’s pro-life, don’t you dare try to convince me to not be pro-choice.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I am not here to convince people who are personally pro-life. I see you, I love you, I respect you. I’m here to make fun of people who think that being pro-life should be the law of the land. I hate you people, you are my enemy. Simple facts and I’m also-

Emily Ladau:
What was that? The sound of losing listeners. Bye-bye.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I don’t care. Like I said earlier, and I’ll say this again, because I want to make this very clear. If you are someone who has only seen anti-choice propaganda, I would not blame you for being pro-life, nor would I blame you for wanting everybody to be pro-life. I really wouldn’t, that’s not your fault. I’m not trying to get you to change your mind, but I’m trying to get you to understand that the opposite of pro-life is … You’re not pro-life, you’re anti-choice, those are not … Whoever created that distinction, these two terms are not opposites. Everybody is pro-life. There are also people who are anti-choice.

Emily Ladau:
I would just like some people to get the facts. I think so often about some of the data surrounding, for example, disability and sexual assault and the fact that disabled people are, I believe, three times more likely to experience some kind of sexual violence. As we well know, sexual violence can lead to pregnancy and may indeed lead to someone wanting to choose abortion. That is certainly a worst case scenario, but it is something that happens. I just wish that people would understand that there are real people behind these facts and these statistics, and we need to keep choices in place, whether it is someone who has experienced sexual assault, or whether it is someone who just feels like right now, a baby is not for them.

Kyle Khachadurian:
There are a million reasons why someone might choose to end their pregnancy. It is none of our business. It is none of anyone’s business. That’s exactly why we want them to be able to do it.

Emily Ladau:
If you have made that choice, if you know somebody who has made that choice, I see you and I respect you and I hope you know that. I am very, very sorry that you are having to listen to conversations about whether your choice was justifiable. Man, this was heavy.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, sorry just one more thing. In the interest of being fair and balanced TM, wink, wink, President Obama once said that he would sign … The name of the law escapes me, but this was back when he first got elected, it would basically enshrine abortion rights and then he didn’t do it. This is not a right wing problem.

Emily Ladau:
Oh, you mean codifying?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. Codifying into real law instead of just like a court precedent, this is not … We make fun of the right here because we’re lefties, but it’s mostly a right wing problem, but it’s not exclusively one.

Emily Ladau:
I am actually glad you said that because that’s true. It’s not just that I am coming after the people who are heavily conservative, it’s that I also really think that the left needs to do better on this, I really do. I’m fully willing to call out the political side with which I align because they are quite frankly not freaking great on this issue.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, it’s disheartening actually, but that’s why we’re doing this.

Emily Ladau:
And that was what I meant about sometimes feeling like I don’t have a place in this, but luckily, there are incredible disabled people who are doing the work of organizing and so right now, I’m still maybe the vaguest bit hopeful, but also mostly just feeling really pessimistic about the direction of everything and trying so hard not to.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I bet you’d feel a little bit better if people just stop trying to control women all the goddamn time?

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I’d feel better if I had ice cream too, [inaudible 00:34:00] emotional.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That time I said women deliberately, by the way.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, the patriarchy. I get it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
If you’re really pro-life and I mean, I was fooling you, I’m pro-life as are you, and we’re all pro-life here. I think that every person who has the ability to get another person pregnant, to show how committed they are to the sanctity of life should undergo involuntary sterilization until they are ready to procreate. That will guarantee that nobody who doesn’t want to get pregnant will be able to what’s wrong with that. Is there something wrong with that? There is something wrong with that and that’s the point. That’s exactly the point.

Emily Ladau:
Should we do final takeaways before I talk myself so far into a spiral about this that I can no longer function tomorrow?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, my final takeaway is I’m pro-choice and I wish you were. You, the listener, not you, Emily. I know you are.

Emily Ladau:
My final takeaway is don’t you ever, ever, ever, ever, ever tell me what to do with my body. Don’t you ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever tell anyone what to do with their body ever, ever, ever, ever.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s really easy, just don’t do it. Oh, also just don’t have sex is not a defense for being pro-life by the way. Bye-bye everybody. But actually though.

Emily Ladau:
End it on that note.